Marti with a few words for John.
Marti had a few words with me after Friday’s Catch.
My wife is especially sensitive towards those who want to follow Christ and yet feel judged by Christians. She’s this way because she has felt, most of her life like she is on the outside of the circles most Christians run in. She’s much more comfortable around non-Christians. So when I quoted a passage on Friday that seems to be telling Christians to judge each other (1 Corinthians 5:9-13) — even expel certain individuals from the fellowship — without explaining what that meant, she was a little concerned. The lion picture here captures pretty well the nature of her comments to me when she read the Catch this weekend. I got an earful.
The problem here is that I come from a wholly different perspective, having been on the inside all my life. I feel comfortable around Christians and intimidated around non-Christians. The danger from my perspective is the tendency to make a big deal about the sins of everyone but myself, and the most ready supply of these sinners are those outside the Church. That is why this passage always jumped out at me in particular because it turns the table on that kind of thinking. It also runs against the Christian tradition of not associating with bad people by pointing out that you would have to leave the world if you were really going to do that.
Here’s the point: bad people are everywhere. Sinners are on both sides of the fence. The people who make up those inside and outside the church are all sinners, and Christians, of all people, should know that. Christians should be struggling with their own sin in some form every day. Church should be more like sinners anonymous meetings — always reminding Christians of why they need to be saved and helping them to overcome their tendencies to sin. This would eliminate any tendency to judge those outside. But it should also keep us from judging those inside as well.
The judgment Paul appears to be condoning here is not the arbitrary judgment of some Christians by other Christians; it is the exercise of Church discipline towards someone who is harming the church by living in a state of immorality without any attempt to do anything about it. The person Paul had little sympathy for in this passage is the so-called Christian who apparently has no struggle with their sin. They don’t appear to have a working conscience that tells them what they are doing is wrong. The expulsion he is suggesting here is a serious matter, and other passages indicate how this is to be handled only by the elders of the church, and only after numerous attempts at confrontation have proven unfruitful.
This continues to be the Gospel of Welcome, and the only one who wouldn’t be welcome is the one who doesn’t want to be — someone who thinks, for one reason or another, that they do not need it.
John Fischer The Catch 
My perspective is that Marti is a good wife; my own tends to mimic that behavior. Guess that’s why in Genesis God decided we needed someone instead of being alone.
I won’t reiterate my earlier comments about this subject but simply say that Paul does a pretty fair job, it seems to me, in Romans 7 of pointing out that even he had similar problems, but he goes on in Romans in Chapter 8 and 12 and 13 to explain what he thought our mind set should be as Christians and how the Holy Spirit changes us…over time…to be more Christ like in all that we do.
Meanwhile we need to focus on this tenet more and more, “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself” (13:9).
You know, John, there is a REASON the Lord brought you and Marti together – BALANCE!
And He likes a good laugh every now and again too, I suppose!
Amen to that!
I’m so sorry Pastor John and Marti too, i thought it was explained fully within the verses you gave: Corinthians 5:9-13 That it was about: “…Church discipline towards someone who is harming the church by living in a state of immorality without any attempt to do anything about it.” Very plain & simply 4 me to understand and caused no confusion what-so-ever with me – of course it may have helped because i did decide to look up and read those verses…
PS can i plz suggest this kinds of disagreements will often occur between others in one shape or form, until deciding to understand one another much better by consider reading a book(s) by Dr. Robert A. Rohm such as: Understanding Personalities Differences by using the DISC Method
PSS also let me plz mention the very nice and kind homeless woman, Kim called me over the weekend from the hospital telling me she went in becauz of having bad head aches – she said she feeling OK, or better, just wanted a kind voice to speak to, which helped me to feel good – knowing she trusts & likes me – I’ve tried calling her back w/ no luck, yet i am very happy she went to a place that should be able to help her more – plz continue to say prayers 4 my friend… i’ll thank-you all in advance. 🙂
I won’t go into the long details of how I found your site. Suffice it to say I was totally led by the Holy Spirit. And I hope you are not apologizing for Friday’s post. You were right on point. I read your post on Friday and was brought to tears by the conviction of the Spirit – literally. Yes the scripture clearly outlines how the Elders are to deal with those in the Church but we have failed miserably at that. And instead of cleaning up our side of the street we self righteously point out the sins of those in the world. Or rather I must say I am guilty of that. Thank you for reminding me I am to show the Light of Christ by loving those “on the outside” not condemning them bt word or deed.
I’m not sure what the big kerfuffle is all about. In the context of the first two verses of the chapter, Paul’s comments in verses 9-13 make complete sense.
Just my two bits.
As one that has been shunned by the church I can say it isn’t very helpful. We don’t get shunned because of sin, we get shunned because of theological disagreement. I was called the voice of Satan in 1985 because I rebuked arm stretching services.
5 years ago I was told I have a demon because I said I didn’t believe being gay or having a monogamous loving same sex relationship was a sin.
I have never been confronted in the church because of my sin, only because of my opinion.
I’m so sorry to have learned what you had to deal w/ in Church – I am very positive you’ll find much love and be accepted here @ the Catch brother Tim.
Sad but true.
I am sure that we can all love one another no matter what our perspective, but there are boundaries of what is truth and what is a lie. I used to lead a divorce support group and had several cases where people who attended my group were praying for and broken hearted, and they wanted to reconcile with their spouse and the spouse was living with someone else and attending church elsewhere, and still married to the attendee of my group. The pastors were told and never attempted to lovingly correct them with the word.
I have close relationships that struggle with homosexuality and have over the years known believers who struggled with their desires, as we all struggle with evil desires. Over my adult life, I have had major struggles with immorality, anger, self-control as well as depression, worry and fear. I have been lovingly taught, corrected and chastened by the Lord. I understand that often we are blind to our own sins, but as a seeker of the truth, whether I liked the truth or not, I have not been offended to hear the truth. I can understand having a struggle with same sex attraction.
But o say that a same sex relationship is a theological difference Is a tremendous understatement when the Word of God clearly states it is sin. I stopped in today, just to mention that there is nothing wrong with Biblical rebuke and biblical confrontation, that is, not irrational and angry confrontation, but in a biblical way, like the Peacemaker books and ministry teaches. But to NOT confront and tell the truth is sin.
There is a series called the Truth Project, and it talks about the christian worldview presented in the scriptures, and that only 9% of so called christians embrace the basic tenets of the faith. Jesus said that the reason He came to the earth was to bear witness to the truth…that’s how important it is. Church discipline is just like correcting a child for not picking up after themselves.
What if your spouse came home today and packed up and moved out and moved in with someone else? Would you be okay with them attending church across town with someone else? Truth telling is important, and guarding a relationship with godly jealousy, Al Canaa, is appropriate. Guarding the truth of God’s word is important too. I know I am a wicked sinner, only saved by grace, and I have a loved one who has these struggles, but I cannot change the truth of God for a lie by being silent.
In reply to Sean. Excellent points. Amen, brother. It’s obvious to me you have lived the experience and walked the talk. It isn’t easy nor simple but the Word of God is a great support for handling these painful and hurting struggles with morality. I constantly have to remind myself to show the love that God showed to me, and yet, I too had to recognize and understand His word. There is no room for silence. God expressed his opinion of that approach when he gave his perception of Laodicea. 15 “I know all the things you do, that you are neither hot nor cold. I wish that you were one or the other! Rev 3:15
Hey Sean, I get it, I really do. But the facts are sexualorentation is not a choice and the Bible is wrong or misinterpreted. There should be no struggle with a sexualorentation you are born with.
There are about six verses in the bible that mention this topic and on investigation they are not so clear.
Science has always won over scriptural interpretation. Whenever the facts of science and common sense come to the forefront scriptural interpretation changes.
The world is round and the earth revolves around the sun.
Slavery is bad.
We used to say interracial marriage was wrong using the unequally yoked scripture.
The earth is about 4.5 billion years in existence not 6,000 years old.
Mentally ill people are not demon possessed.
Throughout history we have continued to change our understanding of scripture to accommodate facts science and social change has taught us. Except for a few churches women are even considered equal.
To say it is not a theological debate is not true, that’s exactly what it is.
Here is one side, What the bible says and doesn’t say about homosexuality.
http://www.soulforce.org/resources/what-the-bible-says-and-doesnt-say-about-homosexuality/
Anyway, I doubt John and Marti want the forum hijacked with this subject so I’m done.
Reply to Tim/sailaway58. I went to the link you recommended and was especially surprised at how it kept putting another grid of truth on the descriptions written in the scriptures. Not only that it came off as being an absolute summary of the things that the bible either did or did not say about homosexuality. It most definitely does not do that.
I don’t have an inclination to hit every detail but here is what the Bible says about homosexuality and it is succinct and clear. In Leviticus 20:13 Leviticus 20:13
“If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. In Leviticus 18:22 “Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin.In 1 corinthians 6:9Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, and in 1 timothy 1:10 The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are slave traders, liars, promise breakers, or who do anything else that contradicts the wholesome teaching and in Romans 1:24 – 26 24 So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. 25 They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. 26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.
You can lay whatever grid of “truth” over God’s word you want, or you can say that we need to be tolerant and loving, but the Bible is very specific about God’s opinion on homosexuality or any degrading thing done with our bodies.
Last of all I find the eighth premise just as intolerant as you claim the bible is. That premise stated, “Whatever some people believe the Bible says about homosexuality, they must not use that belief to deny homosexuals their basic civil rights. To discriminate against sexual or gender minorities is unjust and un-American.” That premise requires anyone in a Judeo-Christian nation to suddenly disavow the beliefs the country was founded on. That should not happen nor be tolerated.
I agree with one precept and that is we need to love one another but we need to help one another meet the boundaries and guidelines spelled out in God’s Word and that Word has not changed. It applies today and it specifies obedience, repentance, and then grace.
Whatever we are, hetrosexual, homosexual, LGBT, we are not to rewrite the Word of God.
We rewrite scripture all the time. If we didn’t we’d still all be Catholic.
The verses you quote are explained in great detail.
If your interpretation of scripture is correct then for me it is nothing but an old book of superstition that has some good sayings.
We are a pluralistic nation where all are considered equal regardless of what someones holy book says.